Role Model’s – aka Tucker Pillsbury – sophomore record, Kansas Anymore, was born from homesickness and heartbreak. A distinct shift from his debut Rx and the flurry of EPs which came before, this LP is undoubtedly his most vulnerable and personal yet. Hailing from Maine, the East Coast state is to Tucker what Kansas was to Dorothy; only his twister sent him to LA in 2018, swapping ruby red slippers for a Stetson and some 501s. For Tucker, his Kansas doesn’t just represent home, it also symbolises a recent public break- up that underpins the entire record – this is him looking back, moving on. At each of Role Model’s gigs, when he plays hit track, Sally, When the Wine Runs Out, the musician calls out, “Where’s my Sally tonight?!” often bringing out another musician from backstage. Performing at LA’s The Wiltern recently, Reneé Rapp answered his call, joining Tucker on stage and sending the crowd into a frenzy.

Tucker Pillsbury: You look like an iPad kid.
Reneé Rapp: I’m on my fucking iPad because I don’t have a computer. I mean, I have a computer, but I don’t use it. Oh, I’ve had this upside down. OK, got it. I’m so dialled in right now, this is going to be the best interview you’ve ever had. [Tucker laughs] Firstly, what are you up to at the moment? And second, what’s your Social Security? And third, your address and the last person you had sex with?

Tucker: OK, thank you, I’ll take it from here. [both laugh]
Reneé: Where the fuck are you [Tucker is in a college locker room]?

Tucker: I’ve quit music and I play football now. I have a big game tonight for Syracuse.
Reneé: Wait, you’re genuinely at a college?

Tucker: Yeah, I think it’s good for artists to…
Reneé: Like, branch out?

Tucker: To try different things to gain inspiration for music. So I was like, why not join a football team?
Reneé: Diversify yourself. Why are you actually at Syracuse?

Tucker: I’m [performing], guess who I’m playing with? Latto.
Reneé: Oh my god! Colleges are supposedly so fucking fun. I’ve never played one before, but every time I see friends of mine doing them, they’re having the time of their lives. Did you go to school?

Tucker: Yeah, I went to film school for three years and then dropped out. Did you?
Reneé: No, I didn’t get in anywhere, academically or artistically. So where the fuck was I gonna go? Tucker: I went to Pittsburgh, which was the only school that gave me monies. Reneé: Love. Wait, is that PIT [Pennsylvania Institute of Technology]?

Tucker: PIT is there, but that wasn’t my school. Mine was Point Park.
Reneé: Oh, you went to Point Park?

Tucker: Yeah, do you know it?
Reneé: I applied there, bitch.

Tucker: For what?
Reneé: Musical theatre.

Tucker: You were going to be a COPA kid [Conservatory of Performing Arts].
Reneé: Exactly, but I didn’t get in. I didn’t get in anywhere. I got into one school for musical theatre, and I don’t think they really wanted me there.

Tucker: But look at you now.
Reneé: Bet they fucking do now.

Tucker: You know what? They probably use you to get people in. They’ll be like, “Reneé Rapp, you know, she applied to be here.”
Reneé: Of course. They’re like, “Hey, she wanted to come here.” And then the schools that rejected me before I could even audition are like, “We rejected her.” [both laugh] Are you still on tour?

Tucker: No, we just had our last show in Boston two nights ago.
Reneé: Are you coming home now? Tucker: In like, a week. Reneé: Oh my god, alert.

Tucker: Are you going to be in LA?
Reneé: Bitch, duh.

Tucker: What are you up to right now?
Reneé: I’m giving mix notes. Really delayed – super delayed. Everybody’s super pissed off like, “What’s the track listing?” You think I know that?

Tucker: But it’s done, you’re in mix?
Reneé: Yeah.

Tucker: So now you get to party for like a month.
Reneé: The truth is, I’ve been partying for every single month for the last two years since I’ve been making this album.

Tucker: Will the album reflect that? Is it a party girl album?
Reneé: It’s kind of a party girl album. You know how certain people are method – I’ve always found that so fucking insufferable, like, “You guys are so self-important and so annoying.” Then recently I’ve been like, wait, am I kind of method…

Tucker: That’s not method, [laughs] that’s you being your own writer, and however you’re actually feeling or what you’re doing is what you’re going to write about – you fucking freak. [both laugh]
Reneé: OK, nevermind, I’m cool again. Wait, you have to come home and hang out with the lesbians. We really want you to hang out with us.

Tucker: Am I allowed in the circle? I feel like with my haircut alone I’m allowed in the circle.
Reneé: 100 percent, you look like half of us. You’re definitely allowed.

“Tucker: When Reneé Rapp shakes ass, the whole crowd shakes ass. And when Tucker shakes ass…
Reneé: All of LA get the earthquake notification. [both laugh]”

Tucker: That means the world to me. Do you remember when we met for the first time?
Reneé: In New York.

Tucker: Yeah, I guess that was our first real hang. That was fun, that was our first, like, girls’ night.
Reneé: That was the first girls’ night, and then I saw you literally the next day in running gear outside the hotel, and I was like, “OK, shorts, what are you doing?”

Tucker: [laughs] Oh, we can skip that.
Reneé: Are you a little runner?

Tucker: I am, but we leave that the fuck out of the interview. [laughs]
Reneé: Wait, do you know what Strava is?

Tucker: Is that like frozen yoghurt or something?
Reneé: [laughs] Oh, my God, literally couldn’t be less. Strava is my favourite app, and if you’re a runner – which I won’t tell anybody, but I’ve seen you in your tiny little shorts – you need fucking Strava because I’m addicted. It’s basically a workout social media app where you post your runs, or pilates, weights, whatever. You have to start logging your runs, it’s so fun.

Tucker: Well, you just gave them a whole brand endorsement, so it better be.
Reneé: I’m trying to get everyone on. I want to know about your fitness and like, what’s going on with the muscles? [laughs]

Tucker: I’m trying to get my body right for summer, as is everyone.
Reneé: I mean, of course. I’m actually getting jacked right now. So the next time you see me and you hang out with the lesbians for the first time, don’t be too scared.

Tucker: OK, I love that. I think I’m also going to try and have a body transformation before I get accepted by the lesbians. Although I feel like that won’t help. [both laugh]
Reneé: Stay lean, babe. We call boys like [you] cigarette boys. [laughs] Do you know how to play airplane?

Tucker: Like where you hold me up with your feet on my stomach? Yeah, I’ve played that.
Reneé: Are you good at that?

Tucker: Yeah, I’m about 152[lbs] right now, so I feel like I could still get lifted up and take off.
Reneé: OK cool. Well you’d probably be bottoming, just to be clear, [laughs] and we pretty much play it every time we hang out, probably three times a week. It doesn’t matter if we’re at someone’s house, at a bar, anywhere, we’re airplaning. There’s also something you need to start training for called the Lesbian Olympics, which we just had our first annual ceremony for and it was fucking incredible. Airplane is one of the sports.

Tucker: OK, this is a lot more than I thought.
Reneé: There are some easier rounds, we do like, who can shotgun the best – obviously, it’s me. There’s dodgeball. But airplane is a big one, we take that shit seriously.

Tucker: I mean, listen, you know how much I want to be a part of the upstairs party, so I’m willing to do whatever it takes. If I have to bottom on an airplane, I’m available.
Reneé: Perfect. Here’s my question that I’ve prepared, and this is super important – there’s only one right answer. Who would win in a fight, me or you, go?

Tucker: So… You.
Reneé: Right?

Tucker: If it’s a physical fight, Reneé, you’d have me either dead or unconscious in probably the first 30 seconds.
Reneé: Couldn’t agree more.

Tucker: If it’s a verbal altercation, I feel like I would rip you apart in 30 seconds.
Reneé: No! Wait, genuinely?

Tucker: I think in a verbal altercation, I would win. Physically, you’d put me out quick, you’d put me down.
Reneé: What makes you sure about verbal – where are you from?

Tucker: I’m from the Bronx. [Reneé laughs] I’m from Maine.
Reneé: My god, you’re from Maine. OK, you should just start telling people you’re from Kansas.

Tucker: Yeah, I know it’s confusing and I didn’t think ahead when I did that, but Kansas is cool too. It’s a similar vibe, it would probably be a similar verbal altercation if I were from Kansas.
Reneé: I’m from the South, so I feel like verbally I would kind of assault you.

Tucker: It would just be like two rural…
Reneé: Queens. [Tucker laughs] I think queens is the word you were looking for.

Tucker: I was gonna go pigs, [Reneé laughs] but rural queens just going at it. I’m confident that I could win, but who knows, we’ve never been in a verbal altercation because we’re so respectful to each other.
Reneé: Would you dye your hair?

Tucker: No, I wouldn’t. That’s so funny though, I never have dreams, but I had a dream last night that I had bleach blonde hair, like very saltwatery, beautiful, curly. It was tucked behind my ears in a Venice way, and I was getting compliments. Everyone was like, “Holy fuck, you look so good.” Even I was looking in the mirror, like, “This is the new me.” I remember in my head, in the dream, I was like, “This is who I’m supposed to be.” And then I woke up this morning and I just don’t know what to believe anymore. Did you have platinum hair when you were a baby? Those are the cutest fucking babies. I feel like both parents have to be insanely blonde to have one of those like, bleached surf kids.
Reneé: Not true, and let me show you. So me and my little brother were the fucking cutest babies on Earth. We were both like towhead blondes, which is that bleach blonde. Both my parents are dark brunette, like my mom has thick, almost coarse, dark Italian hair.

Tucker: How did that happen?
Reneé: I don’t know. Look at this [shows Tucker a picture of her and her brother as babies]

Tucker: It’s like that 70s cult look.
Reneé: Totally, and I’m obsessed with that. But you could have it, you just need a blonde baddy.

Tucker: Maybe you could be my surrogate.
Reneé: Why the fuck would I be your surrogate?

Tucker: Because you’re blonde.
Reneé: Yeah, but I’m the one who needs a surrogate.

Tucker: Oh, what is a surrogate? [Reneé laughs] I thought I was going to like, turkey base you with my stuff.
Reneé: [laughs] Do you want to have babies as a single parent?

Tucker: What is this article going to be? [both laugh]
Reneé: It’s going to be really good! Let me check my questions. OK, [tell me about] the impact of Kansas Anymore. What are the themes behind the album? Even though you’re not from fucking Kansas, you fucking liar. [both laugh]

Tucker: The whole point was… A big part of it was homesickness. This is where the name came from, but also just not being in the place I wanted to be – I was homesick all the time. Then I started making music that reminded me of home, and also talking about home and where I’m from for the first time – embracing it. Because I feel like, maybe you’ve gone through this too, in the beginning of my career, I was like, “I don’t want anyone to know where I’m from. I want to be this mysterious thing where people are like, “Oh, maybe he’s from… The Bronx.” [laughs] Maine is such a weird, niche thing, it’s like the corner of the country and not very relatable. This was the first time I had actually talked about where I’m from and embraced it. We did the Europe tour, and to hear people in countries that I can’t point to on a map singing the lines about New England and where I’m from, my mom and my family, hearing them sing that is very cool, and it took me by surprise.
Reneé: I mean, that is fucking sick. And also like, Maine is not real.

Tucker: [laughs] Maine is not real. Where did you say you’re from?
Reneé: Literally, Kansas.

Tucker: No, you’re not. Where are you from?
Reneé: I’m from North Carolina.

Tucker: My sister lived there.
Reneé: Why?

Tucker: She wanted to get out of Maine and see mountains and other places.
Reneé: I mean, North Carolina is really beautiful and like, that’s it. I hated growing up there – despised it. It was a small town, I grew up 30 minutes outside the city, so my neighbours were homophobic and I couldn’t turn right out of my neighbourhood because my mom was like, “It’s too dangerous for you and your friends.”

“Reneé: [laughs] Do you want to have babies as a single parent?
Tucker: What is this article going to be? [both laugh]”

Tucker: Maine is the same.
Reneé: Really? Like, Maine is above New York.

Tucker: Above New York, but like, I’d say Portland, Maine, is the only liberal part of the entire state.
Reneé: I didn’t know that. I don’t know if you feel this way, but moving to LA, I was always like, “Oh my god, I’m moving to the promised land. “ But bitches here are conservative too.

Tucker: Once you realise that that shit is everywhere, it makes it a little bit easier to miss where you’re from. You’re never going to escape people with an ugly mindset. You just have to focus on the positive, as pick me as that is.
Reneé: What are moments that have helped shape you since moving to LA – and why is it meeting me?

Tucker: [laughs] I think being around artists, specifically, Reneé Rapp…
Reneé: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that.

“You’re never going to escape people with an ugly mindset. You just have to focus on the positive, as pick me as that is.”

Tucker: It’s cool. I think it’s very beneficial to be surrounded by your peers, it’s like constant inspiration. I’ve seen your shows and I take notes. I think also The 1975 do it very well, of just like, not taking the live show too seriously – have fun and shake ass to songs that are, if you listen to them closely, pretty fucking sad. Living in LA, you get to see these shows happening every fucking week.
Reneé: I love watching my friend’s shows. I really, really liked watching your show, I was kicking my feet when I went home. It was super fun and super cute. And I love watching videos of your shows.

Tucker: You kind of owned the father figure trend.
Reneé: Thank you. That’s very sweet. It was happening while I was off TikTok.

Tucker: I mean, hey, you’re going to start that rollout soon. You’ve got to be socially active.
Reneé: Girl, girl, girl. Everyone’s like, “Post again, queen.” I’m like, “Fuckkkk.” But I get it, and I understand that it’s good.

Tucker: And you’re good at it.
Reneé: Thanks, girl. So are you. What time is your show tonight?

Tucker: I go on at eight, and Miss Latto goes on at nine.
Reneé: How would you say your live show has evolved [since you began]?

Tucker: I don’t know. I think you just get more confident the more you do it. I really did the steps: the tiny rooms, the intimate shows, the Sprinter van tours, the rental car tours. Doing all that starts to give you confidence. Also having a fun fanbase is the best. It’s not all teenage boys who are booing you when you don’t play the song they want to hear and throwing water balls at you. It’s fun girls who are supportive and passionate. It’s the most passionate and fun type of fans. I’ve been to a Charli xcx concert, I get it, and it’s the same energy. When you have that, it makes it very easy to put on a fun show. There’s no one standing with their hands in their pockets. When Reneé Rapp shakes ass, the whole crowd shakes ass. And when Tucker shakes ass…
Reneé: All of LA get the earthquake notification. [both laugh]

Tucker: A little seismic wave.
Reneé: It is super fun. Fans make a show.

“Having a fun fanbase is the best… It’s the most passionate and fun type of fans.”

Tucker: They’re the ones who get all the compliments, too. Like, when we did that LA thing [Reneé Rapp joined Role Model on stage at his concert], the crew and artists backstage were all talking about the fans, they weren’t talking about the show. They were like, “Your fans are amazing!” I think if you have a good crowd, you’ll put on a good show.
Reneé: It makes such a massive difference. When you were growing up what were the references that impacted your music?

Tucker: I think the first time music inspired and affected me was, as cliché as it is, The Lumineers, that was the first music I would listen to and like, fantasise about crushes and stuff – close my eyes and be a fucking romantic, even though I’m like, ten years old.
Reneé: [laughs] That’s so cute, you’re like, “The Lumineers had me in a chokehold.”

Tucker: That’s what it was for me, anything where I could put my earbuds in and fantasise.
Reneé: Oh, my god, you’re so funny. I thought you were going to be like, Bob Dylan, or something like that. You’re like, “The Lumineers.”

Tucker: What did you listen to?
Reneé: When I was a kid, it was all Beyoncé. Now it’s still kind of all Beyoncé.

Tucker: What are you going to listen to on your way to Pilates?
Reneé: Nothing. I don’t listen to music in the car.

Tucker: Are you kidding me?
Reneé: I can’t.

Tucker: Oh, that’s like a serial killer. You just listen to the wind?
Reneé: Yeah. Because also I’m late everywhere, so I’m stressed. I don’t have time to put on music. I listen to Etta James in the morning every single day while I make breakfast. But other than that, I don’t like listening to music really. Sue me. [laughs] When you come home, you have to come to Solid Core with me.

Tucker: I’ll say yes, just for the sake that we’re live right now. [Reneé laughs] But I don’t like classes and stuff.
Reneé: You say that until you come to Solid Core, and then you can log it on your Strava. We’ll go, bitch.

Tucker: OK, thank you Reneé. Go have fun at Pilates, I love you.
Reneé: Love you, babe.

hair ADAM MARKARIAN using ORIBE HAIRCARE; make-up ZAHEER SUKHNANDEN; fashion assistant DREW HEMNES